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Post by jerseycub on Oct 10, 2011 14:51:39 GMT -6
Since phil set this up for me I thought I would make the first post thanking Phil for setting this up. :)THANK YOU PHIL   . As soon as I can figure it out I want to post an article from Rodale on the trial they conducted over the last 30yrs. comparing conventional farming to Organic Farming. If you go to WWW.RodaleInstitute.org you probably could view the report under Farming Systems trial. I just checked and yes you can. There are also other articles of interest there. If you are a Organic gardener or Farmer this is a handy site. |
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Post by jerseycub on Oct 11, 2011 7:16:41 GMT -6
Thank you Phil, now pholks can get it either way. Hope they find it useful.
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Post by mogarden on Oct 12, 2011 6:13:21 GMT -6
For me, organic was always the way to go, or the "ideal" way to go. When you have a very small garden and have to import leaves and other OM, it not as good as if you have the room to grow your own green manure, animals (for their manure) and space to compost a year's supply of everything. It can get expensive and time-consuming to gather all that up. Not that I don't think it's worth it for the better quality produce, I do. I am still a little confused by those pholks that say they want to "be organic" and not treat any plants for bugs or disease, just let it all go to heck 'cause it's "natural" that way. Being organic is not for the lazy!
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Post by jerseycub on Oct 12, 2011 8:54:57 GMT -6
mogarden, That last statement is so true. Organic gardening is definitely not for the lazy, you have to tend the garden every day. But there are Organic spray's to control most insects, and as far as weeds are concerned you have to cultivate and do some hand work. No big deal. I personally love the smells of fresh healthy soil in the spring. IT SMELLS LIKE VICTORY.   |
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Post by Pharmer Phil on Oct 14, 2011 7:07:42 GMT -6
so true, If it was easy...everyone would do it, of this I am sure... I can see major time saved if you are not organic, from weed control...right up to fungus/disease...and everything in between.... However, I/We garden organically to eat healthier... if we used non organic methods...how would our produce be any different/safer/purer from store bought.. other than the chemicals would have been applied by ourselves, and hopefully in a responsible manner, versus "shotgun" application by mechanical methods And I don't need any experts analyzing the difference eating organic veggies, meat and dairy makes, I can see it in my health, and others, versus friends and family who eat store bought foods, fast foods and processed foods.... And Mo, It is a fact that some let the quality of their produce be effected by their attempt at being "natural" I believe though that this has changed for the better in the last few years for most growers, that and much better organic products are now available, and available in more areas. I for one lived in an area 20 years ago, where there wasn't any organic products readily available, you had to drive quite some distance, even those areas now have organic products in many outlets. That being said, even today, where we are, we need to seek out and drive sometimes 25-30 miles for products the stores here just don't carry. well, that's my 2¢ worth fer now... Gotta go do some of that "Organic Labor" right now...and for the rest of the day...week... reckon it'll snow soon?? |
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Post by jack on Oct 14, 2011 13:07:55 GMT -6
Gidday
"However, I/We garden organically to eat healthier..."
That mate, is the crux of the matter Eh!
But I garden organicly and I do not spend most of my time in the garden. In fact the opposite because I spend no where near enough time there. Sure me weeding gets ahead of me at times but what the hell, my tucker is a hellava lot better for me even with the odd bug in it.
I do have one great advantage though, free sea weed to make me liquid manure. But I also have a disadvantage in the climate here is our rain is not realy reliable and the temperature is up and down like a whores draws, and that is real difficult to work with cos you ndon't know when it is safe to plant what.
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Post by Compost Pharmer on Oct 14, 2011 15:53:37 GMT -6
I totally agree with everything that was said. I feel that being organic is the only way to be. Now if we can just get Monsanto to understand our side and stop making and selling all the destructive chemicals, we would all be more healthy and live longer lives. The US government is just as much at fault. The politicians are bought off, to vote in favor of these large companies. If we people, the world over, would stop buying these harmful chemicals, they would be forced to stop making them. Texas is probably the leading organic state, due to people like Malcom Beck (Gardenville), Howard Garrett, John Dromgoole, & Sabino Cortez.
I agree that organic gardening may not be the easiest, but it is the best. It has only been since WWII that Monsanto and other companies have been creating and manufacturing these chemicals.
I look at ‘weeding’ as harvesting compost ingredients. The majority of the weeds go into the compost bins, to make that all important, slow release fertilizer. Finished compost can be added at any time, and will not hurt plants.
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Post by jerseycub on Oct 15, 2011 6:34:11 GMT -6
Organic....is really just natural farming that was practiced by our parents and the country's or origins they came from. That accounts for thousands of years of agriculture. As CF said the late 40s brought on commercial farming and since GMO seed so we could produce more in less acreage, which is turning out to be untrue as you can see in the article that the Rodale Institute has written. I think we here are on the right track with this forum, we support each other and there are many visitors who will see what we represent and eventually join in. I as I'm sure most of us educate others about the importance of Natural gardening/ Farming. That is important the more people that we inform the more the word spreads. Organic is growing rapidly in this area as I am sure it will allover. You just can't beat a fresh naturally grown vegetable.
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Post by Compost Pharmer on Nov 10, 2011 16:41:33 GMT -6
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Post by Pharmer Phil on Nov 11, 2011 3:39:35 GMT -6
the LINK you mention Cp, was not to Rodales bro, but a link to a .pdf file titled: Farm System Trials jc's link went to rodale... yes, Ripway.com, a major file storage site, one that stores files other than pictures (.pdf, .doc, etc.)...has GONE UNDER... Mine and many pholks files are gone.. pain in the azz too because I had many useful .pdf files, the little OPP.ico logo that showed in the url bar while here..all gone some tutorials I had done years back...all gone, unless I can find the originals...and If I ever saved them to a disc..B4 my recent puter crash... OK, I just checked and I do have this file... Just need to find a Filehost that will host it for me, with Ripway gone, there's not alot of hosts that do files other than pictures |
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Post by Rita on Nov 11, 2011 6:02:52 GMT -6
Ohhh No good  There are a few X hooked me up with .. I don't think I have them anymore tho .. Actually I do ... www.megaupload.com |
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Post by jerseycub on Nov 11, 2011 14:21:14 GMT -6
Ohhh No good There are a few X hooked me up with .. I don't think I have them anymore tho .. Actually I do ... www.megaupload.comRita I'm lost with this site. I don't see the connection with Organics at all. |
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Post by Rita on Nov 11, 2011 17:46:51 GMT -6
Ohhh No good There are a few X hooked me up with .. I don't think I have them anymore tho .. Actually I do ... www.megaupload.comRita I'm lost with this site. I don't see the connection with Organics at all. Sorry joe this will get deleted I was just trying to help Phil out with a problem .. |
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Post by Pharmer Phil on Nov 12, 2011 6:32:13 GMT -6
Ohhh No good There are a few X hooked me up with .. I don't think I have them anymore tho .. Actually I do ... www.megaupload.comRita I'm lost with this site. I don't see the connection with Organics at all. Bro, There wasn't suppose to be a connection... sometimes Ya need fuel to get where yer goin, this time; this thread needed a link to a file to get Us from merely mentioning a great article...to this: Rodale Farm System Trialsthanks Rita, I didn;t use megupload, I had already found a free .pdf file host |
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Post by coppice on Nov 12, 2011 6:39:55 GMT -6
Gardening doesn't mean (fer me anyway) that I don't spray. It just means I pick my battles, knowing that I'm not using napalm. Meaning I will likely have to do follow up sprays.
Not all bugs are bad, most are neither good or bad for my garden production. They just abide in the same space I use.
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Post by Pharmer Phil on Nov 12, 2011 6:56:52 GMT -6
organic farms/CSA's here use the Rodale Farm System , one such farm is Riverbend Farms, a 30 acre CSA farm here in Mn. RIVER BEND FARM Check out >> River bend Farms |
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Post by jerseycub on Nov 12, 2011 8:36:51 GMT -6
Gardening doesn't mean (fer me anyway) that I don't spray. It just means I pick my battles, knowing that I'm not using napalm. Meaning I will likely have to do follow up sprays. Not all bugs are bad, most are neither good or bad for my garden production. They just abide in the same space I use. How we follow Organic practices is a personal thing for some, However those of us that want to lable our produce Certified Organic have to folow the leter of the law. Rita I hope I didn't come off like I was scolding anyone I just wasn't understanding the message. It's not my place to tell anyone here what to say or do and never my intent. |
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Post by coppice on Nov 13, 2011 5:46:29 GMT -6
I use only sprays that are aproved for organic culture. But it'll be a cold day in hell before I seek permission of my government, on how I garden. Of any branch or department of any level of my government.
Conflating and confusing organic practice with organic certification only justafies the guys who have already run off with the good name.
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Post by Rita on Nov 13, 2011 6:34:18 GMT -6
it'll be a cold day in hell before I seek permission of my government, on how I garden. Of any branch or department of any level of my government. I so agree!!  the only thing I consider real organic .. Is what I grow myself .. I KNOW whats in it .. well of course other than my phriends here whom I trust ;D |
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Post by jerseycub on Nov 13, 2011 7:01:22 GMT -6
it'll be a cold day in hell before I seek permission of my government, on how I garden. Of any branch or department of any level of my government. I so agree!! the only thing I consider real organic .. Is what I grow myself .. I KNOW whats in it .. well of course other than my phriends here whom I trust ;D It doesn't mater how you garden for yourself as I stated earlier. But to be an Certified Organic Farm You can not sell your Produce with the Labeling of USDA Organic. Unless you are inspected by the USDA and use only Organic materials that are on the USDA list of excepted materials. So in closing IT DON"T MATER WHAT YOU THINK!! THAT'S THE WAY IT IS FOR ALL OF US THAT FARM ORGANIC...!!! Try to think of how things are for those of us that have to go threw this every year, it's no picnic but we have no other choice. Try to Respect That. OK!!! Quote! You may think you know what I said is what I meant, but what I meant isn't necessarily what you think I said. |
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Post by Pharmer Phil on Nov 13, 2011 8:38:52 GMT -6
I so agree!! the only thing I consider real organic .. Is what I grow myself .. I KNOW whats in it .. well of course other than my phriends here whom I trust ;D It doesn't mater how you garden for yourself as I stated earlier. But to be an Certified Organic Farm You can not sell your Produce with the Labeling of USDA Organic. Unless you are inspected by the USDA and use only Organic materials that are on the USDA list of excepted materials. So in closing IT DON"T MATER WHAT YOU THINK!! THAT'S THE WAY IT IS FOR ALL OF US THAT FARM ORGANIC...!!! Try to think of how things are for those of us that have to go threw this every year, it's no picnic but we have no other choice. Try to Respect That. OK!!! Quote! You may think you know what I said is what I meant, but what I meant isn't necessarily what you think I said. first off, we need to stay focused here... because this is coming close to a political debate and we don't do political here... JC, I take offense, because it does matter to me, how I garden. I garden because I want to eat healthy, I garden because I want to prepare healthy foods for my wife, friends and sell healthy produce to customers. And it matters to Our customers, they Know Us, we know them...trust is hard to beat. And here, I can sell up to 5000.00 dollars worth of produce, and label it ORGANIC...with no certification... Just good faith, afterall, we aren't used car saleman who have poured sawdust in your transmission to get the car off the lot... we are gardeners/farmers, tending the land, Knowing the land is feeding Us, and those who trust Us for there produce Would I get certified IF, I was set up to be able too...Possibly, but not probably... because then, you have the government telling you what to do, just so you can get a few cents more for the right to LABEL it organic... yet, the customer doesn't know, visit, or talk with you.. how do they know you haven't "broken" the rules?? To the masses, you are just another Organic certified producer, faceless, no human ties Just another organic producer which the customers WISH would, and or could..sell their HEALTHY, ORGANICALLY CERTIFIED produce..cheaper I have been organic WAY before it was COOL, way before there was any certification, and I'm fine with knowing, my friends knowing and those who KNOW me...trusting my practices. That being said... IF, faced with a problem, be it disease OR insect... I can..and WILL...do something about it... and that means .. I won't Loose...a crop... So if, I want to use something NOT cleared for organic production, I can, and will I will also tell my friends, customers I have done so, and they can make their minds up if they want to purchase and or use the produce. And For Us...we know what we used, how much we used, and how it was applied...and we take the needed (if any) precautions... This has happened so few times I can't even remember...but when it did.. I didn't have any government agency to answer to, or any certification to loose... If I did, and I had to make the choice... I'd rather lose the certification...than I would lose the food... I can't eat paper So, the difference is... We Both plant half an acre of squash lets say... both plots get , oh lets say Angular...or something that's really TOUGH to fight off organically You..lose your crop...and your investment...or, You spray a non approved substance...and lose Your Certification We lose nothing but the ability to charge our customers a few cents more for the squash being organically raised..., and we TELL THEM..that the squash Is Not organic... But, organic or not we need to be tolerant and respectful of others and their views...I know some who have great dis-taste for the whole Organic movement, calling those who are Capitalists... So bro...I'm afraid I am with Coppice on this, I know and understand what he is saying... |
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Post by jerseycub on Nov 13, 2011 9:34:53 GMT -6
Phil: Plain and simple. I am not supporting government in my statement, I am simply stating facts. Not everyone we sell to is our friend or neighbor so having that certification does mean something to them, just like USDA has on meats and other foods for as long as I can remember. Yes thing do slip threw the cracks but as a whole the USDA is an regulator of the food industry that does watch over food handling. I am not advocating government control, but not every producer is honest. So we do need guide lines. If you are a professional farmer we need to deal with lots of possible losses and it's a part of farming. I don't have all the answers to what to do if I have a certain disease problem that needs tending with something none Organic, but if I am faced with it you can believe I will do all I can to find out how I can remedy the problem Organically.
Finally in my previous post I was not questioning anyones method of farming or gardening as you say that is there personal and honest methods nothing more. I agree.
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Post by coppice on Nov 14, 2011 7:11:45 GMT -6
I have no distaste? dislike? disparagement of using organic practice. Tho I gotta confess it is more due to poverty (and my personal penury), than a possible higher price I could attain. The market gardener who sells near to their home, deserves only my contented consent and encouragement. My disgust with modern organic certification, and the intrusion of an adversarial relationship by the certifying agency is where the rubber hits the road for me. I'm more likely to give away the fruits of my labor than sell it any way. Not a single bug was sprayed by the transmission of this post.  |
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Post by jerseycub on Nov 14, 2011 7:27:22 GMT -6
My disgust with modern organic certification, and the intrusion of an adversarial relationship by the certifying agency is where the rubber hits the road for me.
I think the best way to put this whole discussion to rest is simply for me to say. My intent was to explain what we have to deal with as certified organic farmers, and for me so everyone understands. The price of vegetables is not the principle nor the issue of government on this subject. For us meaning Ruth and myself to make a living at small scale farming is what we have decided to do.
IF I HAVE OFFENDED ANYONE HERE IN DOING SO. THAT SADDENS ME. BUT I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE FOR MY DECISIONS ON HOW WE MAKE A LIVING.
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Post by Compost Pharmer on Nov 14, 2011 17:45:28 GMT -6
I for one, have not been offended. It was a learning experience for me to learn what you you have to go thru, to be a "Certified Organic Pharmer' Please do not stop posting on this subject.
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Post by Pharmer Phil on Nov 15, 2011 5:38:27 GMT -6
And it is a hard path going organic and maintaining the certificate, and problems do arise...
Growers, aspiring growers wanting to, or considering certification need the positive and negative, problems, struggles are important to speak of also,,,all in all this is a great thread, we learn from hearing trials and tribulations...and we weigh the info and reach our own decisions...
presenting or discussing possible trouble scenarios...ultimatums that a certified grower has to deal with...all a part of the path to learning
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Post by Rita on Nov 15, 2011 6:41:48 GMT -6
See it seems to me that organic means different things to different people .. Farming goes beyond the Garden, its in the meats as well ..
Which the standards are FAR different and almost none existent really..
Just because the cattle don't have immunizations it doesn't mean its organic .. free range ??Do they check every inch of the land they feed on ? Generally NOT .. with chickens it means they have to be out in a pinned area for a short amount of time .. And Yes these are certified as well ..
Here in Mass we have a Raw milk Program ..
"Pasteurized milk (heated to over 160 °F) is a relatively new product. Pasteurization came about less than a century ago, as a reaction to milk produced in urban dairies from cows kept in confinement and fed industrial waste-largely from distilleries. Contamination of such milk was controlled by heating it ("pasteurizing" it) to kill all bacteria, both the good and the bad.
Eventually the urban dairies disappeared, but pasteurization remained. Now a growing number of people are learning that fresh milk from nearby dairy farms-where cows still graze outside and are managed using organic and sustainable practices-does not need pasteurization. It tastes better, is more beneficial to human health and the health of the environment, and directly supports local farmers and communities. In Massachusetts there are more than 24 farms that pass rigorous inspections and are certified to sell raw milk from their farm stores. Visit one of these farms to learn more about this vital and healthy product."
In the full article they throw around the word organic a lot but .. isn't it what they eat ? The land they graze on ? ..
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Post by jerseycub on Nov 15, 2011 8:43:11 GMT -6
Rita You are right about the word Organic is used all to often to make people believe something is better. What I feel is in today's world most people haven't had the farm experiences that those of us from the 40s and 50s generation have had, times were much different then and what is being called USDA Certified Organic is what was natural to us without the Government agencies Like USDA there to tell us so. Keep in mind also that a lot of commercial farms in this generation are run by corporations not mom and dad as it was in our day. The Incorporation of farming in the past 35-40yrs has caused these changes. I hate to say this, but people just aren't as honest as they were in our time. Not to say that Government is any better, but what can ya do FRYING PAN OR FIRE  |
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Post by Rita on Nov 15, 2011 12:53:50 GMT -6
I generally jump right in the Phire like it or not .. I was raised in a tiny town .. 165 people Homestead if ya will .. Couldn't phart in your back yard and the neighbors would be callin ya in for disterbing the peace  But this being said ... there were probably a million acres of land(exaggerating maybe a bit but as far as the eye can see ) pharmed for wheat and cattle .. these were poor ole people ... You KNOW they were organic in their fields because they had no way to spray that amount of land .. their cattle were fed from their hay fields .. you would run into cattle drives ever so often .. where they were taking them to their winter field etc so they could replenish what the cow had reaped from the land that summer ... to me thats an organic farm ... If I ever return to Oregon I will take pictures .. but its not looking so good as I can't stand the mentality of the people  I will find a picture ... Ok found a picture  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2011 14:57:31 GMT -6
Growin up for me was all Organic in our gardens.....we did'nt know any other way.....so, if we had bugs in the garden we killed them the best we could by hand.....weeds...the hoe's killed'em(is that PC)? And we ate damned good.......i sure miss those days. |
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