Organic dirt question

[Garden Happy]

I had a customer buy a load of Organic dirt for a new garden area. The dirt came and set for 3 weeks in a pile while we worked on irrigation, fencing and some other start up stuff first.
Here's the problem. the dirt was 145 degrees in the first top layer. Hotter in the middle about 160 degrees/ It's for sure it was not finished cooking. Smelled strong of chemical type smell and hit 7.8 to 8 on the alkaline side.( Still is a 7-8 alkaline on all testing of the soil we have not used.)
So we mixed batches of 1/4 leaf mold,1/4 peat, and then1/4 her composted dirt and then 1/4 of the new organic soil.
We then sprayed the dirt with Manage-a organic bacteria soil builder and stablilzer.1 time a week ,drenching soil per instructions.
It's been 4 weeks now and the plant leaves on the bottom of all the plants are turning yellow. It is not bugs, it's the soil.
We have another garden area we need to build the soil up in but I'm concerned to even use the organic dirt now.
We are out of her composted dirt of course and my leaf mold that I can spare. Any Ideas?

The organic soil we bought was suppose to be ready to plant and grow in. Reading up I found an article from Rodale's on how the method being used by Government regulated Organic dirt farms is off causing soil to not be finished cooking and they are exploring new regulations for this method because of this problem.
One thing is for sure, this dirt is DEAD, hotter then it should be, and I have a customer who spent $1,800 on just the dirt and is very disappointed with it!
Any Ideas would be greatly appreciated.
She say's now they bought Organic dirt from this same place a few years ago and it cooked all their plants then. I used this same dirt in the community garden but it sat for 9 months before use. I did a base of 1 foot of leaf mold then mixed the dirt with that and that garden grows great.

[Compost Pharmer]

It sounds like it is in the middle of the composting cycle. Is it possible to not use it for at least 6 months, and let it finish breaking down? If it is this hot, it is frying the plants roots. My compost heaps get that hot during the decomposition. I don't use it until it no longer heats up.
How many yards was that for $1800? Around here, compost sells for about $40 a yard.

[Garden Happy]

That's what I'm telling her. That we need to wait about 6 to 9 months to use the dirt.
I told her that I could make no promices with this garden for the first season because of the dirt. We could try and mix it up really well with leaf mold and her compost and some peat but it's just going to take time to get anything decent out of it. We let the mix sit for 3 weeks in the new beds and waited until we were getting really good readings on the PH scale, temp. and moisture and all the while drenching with the MANAGE and that dirt is cool . I get readings of 5.6 to 6.5 on the PH scale and the moisture is well balanced. The plants are growing and getting new growth ,blooming, and all was well but after 3 weeks in their leaves on the bottom only are turning yellow, otherwise the plants seem to be healthy.

The organic dirt pile is still testing 140 degrees in the top 1foot layer and steaming away. For sure there is no using it for now straight.
I tried to give her a little bit of a garden for now with the mixed in leaf mold, her own compost, and some peat and only 1/4 of the new dirt.
It's 100 yards of dirt total. The dirt cost was $18.00 a yard because she bought so much at once but the normal cost is $35.00 a yard and delivery fee.
After reading the article from Rodale's Institute this is a common problem all over to the point the government is now going to change regulations on when to turn the cooking piles. For now it's every 15 days that it's suppose to be turned I think I read on Rodale's information. I really like this dirt farm and don't want to cause a stink but I really do feel this is not right for my customer and hope I can do something besides wait 6 to 9 more months.

[jerseycub]

Oct 9, 2013 1:19:45 GMT -6 Garden Happy said:

That's what I'm telling her. That we need to wait about 6 to 9 months to use the dirt.
I told her that I could make no promices with this garden for the first season because of the dirt. We could try and mix it up really well with leaf mold and her compost and some peat but it's just going to take time to get anything decent out of it. We let the mix sit for 3 weeks in the new beds and waited until we were getting really good readings on the PH scale, temp. and moisture and all the while drenching with the MANAGE and that dirt is cool . I get readings of 5.6 to 6.5 on the PH scale and the moisture is well balanced. The plants are growing and getting new growth ,blooming, and all was well but after 3 weeks in their leaves on the bottom only are turning yellow, otherwise the plants seem to be healthy.

The organic dirt pile is still testing 140 degrees in the top 1foot layer and steaming away. For sure there is no using it for now straight.
I tried to give her a little bit of a garden for now with the mixed in leaf mold, her own compost, and some peat and only 1/4 of the new dirt.
It's 100 yards of dirt total. The dirt cost was $18.00 a yard because she bought so much at once but the normal cost is $35.00 a yard and delivery fee.
After reading the article from Rodale's Institute this is a common problem all over to the point the government is now going to change regulations on when to turn the cooking piles. For now it's every 15 days that it's suppose to be turned I think I read on Rodale's information. I really like this dirt farm and don't want to cause a stink but I really do feel this is not right for my customer and hope I can do something besides wait 6 to 9 more months.

My two cents: I have been making compost out of horse manure,leaves,grass clippings,Household waste, and pure top soil. for a long time and never saw a pile cook at those temps for 6 months in warm weather, max should be three to four weeks.

Having said that I normally wait a full season before using composted material.

My Idea of composted soil is a combination of all the above ingredients, and when I am amending soil with composted material, I make sure it is well worked into the existing soil. I am also a firm believer in cover crops to also add green manure to the ground every season. I would have that material tested before using it any more. If there is a lot of chicken manure in it, it will burn your plants for sure, and that is what I think has happened. It's to hot for the plants. Meaning to much nitrogen or urea.

Large compost piles need to be turned every 7 to 10 days to allow for a good mix and keeping the microbes fed.

[Compost Pharmer]

Ditto to JC. I turne my bins once a week, even in winter, when the north side is frozen. It gets oxygen into the mix. Don't forget to water if it is to dry. It should be like a rung out sponge. My compost gets that hot for a few days and cools down. I turn it and water it, then it heats back up. When it no longer heats up, it is ready to screen and apply to the gardens.

[Garden Happy]

This is not homemade compost. This dirt was from a local organic dirt farm.

[Pharmer Phil]

Sounds like HOT a.k.a. Unfinished Compost.which can smell like a mix of chemicals...even if it is organic
as we all know; Finished compost should smell earthy, like healthy soil, not like ammonia.
after turning, if the compost pile doesn't get above 120° the compost has entered its curing stage.
cure for a month or two to finish... curing allows nitrogen and other chemical constituents to stabilize make it fit for placement around yer plants.

[jerseycub]

Oct 22, 2013 7:23:29 GMT -6 Garden Happy said:

This is not homemade compost. This dirt was from a local organic dirt farm.

Dirt as in topsoil? If that is what you are saying, I'm sort of perplexed on why its so hot...far as I know top soil doesn't have enough organic matter to heat up with microbial action. What I mean is, there would have to be more organic material then soil for that to happen. I don't profess to be an expert on the subject but I think Phil is much more knowledgeable about this then most. Maybe he can answer that better then I can.

[Garden Happy]

No It was not top soil. It's organic composted garden dirt from a organic dirt farm. That's o.k. We've moved on to using her soil from the woods on her property. The organic dirt is just going to have to sit and finish cooking for about 6 months.
The garden is now in and it's looking great! Growing well with out the fancy bought organic dirt.

[Garden Happy]

Wanted to up date this.
Today we had a meeting with our local Cooperative Extension office with the results from our soil samples that we sent in to be analyzed. We did not tell them where the dirt came from.
Our dirt samples were red flagged at the lab and had to go on for more advanced testing. They could make no recommendations. They don't even know what it is. It test like beach front property soil but high super high in carbonates. We are not the only ones complaining and they no longer are referring people to this Organic Dirt Farm.
Our results were so bad they may contact the EPA ,she is going to consult with the lab about that.
Lesson learned, even if it's from an ORGANIC DIRT FARM with a known history of BEING GOOD, TEST ALL SOIL BROUGHT INTO YOUR FARM!
We are going to ask for a full refund and will not EVER be using this place again!

[spuds]

WOW!!

[Garden Happy]

In researching this problem I found a really good study RODALE INSTITUTE is doing on the recommended process of making dirt because of all the problems right now across the USA with this and little regulations. I don't want more government but I'm looking more into Permaculture growing because of this.
This dirt is not the process, something is fishy here.
But everyone needs to be really testing any brought in dirt even if bought from a place that never has ever had a problem that you know of.
My main concern is has this contaminated her Organic Ground!
We will be growing a cover crop of sunflowers followed by a green manure crop in the new soil we brought in after removing this soil.
just in case.
In researching contamination I found a site that said sunflowers will remove contamination from your soil.
Our Cooperative Extension Office confirmed this method yesterday for me when I asked about it. They agreed to grow these as a cover crop followed by a green manure crop.

[Garden Happy]

Also in all her years with the Extension office she has never seen a dirt sample flagged like this before.

[jerseycub]

Jan 4, 2014 7:06:39 GMT -6 Garden Happy said:

Also in all her years with the Extension office she has never seen a dirt sample flagged like this before.

I don't want to come off as a know it all GH but I will only make a few suggestions since you already have to deal with this problem. I would first make perfectly sure all of the contaminated soil has been removed,second after you have been assured of that, find out what grasses are used to remove contaminants from the soil, I had dealt with a situation on a trap range (shooting clay birds) where there was led shot that had landed over the property line of a gun club. The result of the removal of led contamination was made possible by planting certain grasses that would remove the led residue from the soil and prevent leaching into the lower soil. I had researched this quite a few years ago,and my lack of memory fails to come up with the type of grass, but I am sure that the extension agent can help in that case.

[Garden Happy]

Thanks Jerseycub ,
for sure I will look into that and post what I find out.