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Post by jerseycub on Feb 27, 2013 9:46:30 GMT -6
EVERYONE: This is important. I just read this article in Mother Earth News, and have figured out why I was having problems a few years back with my tomatoes, as a mater of fact I think the post are still here that we discused with Phil. Seams like ther is persistent herbicides in a lot of anamal feeds as well as uses in aig for field hay and straw as well as pastures that are grased by cattle. That manure is used in compost and people purchase it with the risidual herbicide in it. It has caused a lot of crop damage to organic growers. I used straw on my tomatoes three years ago and lost every tomato plant, I suspected herbicide but wasn't sure till I read this article. As it was stated one of the key signs is leaf curling. I still have had slight damage this past season, and we couldn't determan the reason because when we took tisue samples we were looking for deficiency from nutrients in the plants. never found any. This crap hangs on for years and can completely destroy a field. If you go on line to Mother Earth News you should be able to see this article. Please read it. It may save you lots of grief, I know it would have at least made me more aware of what to watch out for and to ask the farmer if they use herbicide. In my case though that farmer wasn't honest with me, and I repeated another application of straw on my garlic, it really didn't seam to affect my garlic at the time, but when I look back at my records there was poor growth that season....Bulbs were smaller then usual, but not all that noticeable. This crap has also been found in horse feed Purina for one. I have been arguing for years with the county agent about allowing municipal leeves and grass clippings to be added to mulch since most homeowners use commercial land scapers who use chemicals to control weeds and that crap stays on the debris that is left on clippings and leaves. Shure enough this artical states that. I just checked the web site and the artical is there here is the site. www.motherearthnews.com/ |
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Post by Compost Pharmer on Feb 27, 2013 15:54:31 GMT -6
Just another reason to make your own compost. That way you know what goes into it.  |
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Post by BestoFour on Feb 27, 2013 16:19:09 GMT -6
My dogs knocked down the fence around my compost pile and distributed the compost all over the yard. Starting over. Oh man.
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Post by jerseycub on Feb 27, 2013 17:03:55 GMT -6
If you read the article in Mother Earth News it will give you more information that I have posted.
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Post by spuds on Feb 28, 2013 8:14:56 GMT -6
Pitiful what we do isnt it.
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Post by spuds on Feb 28, 2013 9:07:39 GMT -6
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Post by jerseycub on Feb 28, 2013 11:25:16 GMT -6
Spuds It's a real pain for those of us that don't produce enough material for composting and are relying on other supplyers. I personally need to stockpile manure every few years and add my yard and vegetable waist to that for composting, so far I have been lucky with who I deal with for horse manure and it's free. I have had no signs of damage from that product. Having said that, in the past I have used straw for mulch around my tomatoes and garlic. Last season I discontinued use of the straw for mulch around my tomatoes but continued to use it for my garlic. Three years ago I lost my entire crop of tomatoes but at the time didn't know why although I suspected it was some type of herbicide. When I questioned the farmer that I purchased it from he denied using herbicide. Well this past season I was still seing some signs of leaf curl and yellowing, we did tissue samples looking for neutrient difficency but didn't find anything wrong. Long story short, my beliefe is that ther is herbicide in that straw and it is still effecting the soil, not as severe as the first time it was used but it's still there. I rotate my crops every season so that will help. But now I have to spend extra money testing the soil for herbicide. I know my composted manure is good becaus I have been using it in another fireld and the plants there were great. Dow and Dupont are killing plants and us and something has to be done about it. |
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Post by Pharmer Phil on Feb 28, 2013 16:25:04 GMT -6
did the tissue sample check for herbicides?
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Post by jerseycub on Mar 1, 2013 11:05:58 GMT -6
did the tissue sample check for herbicides? Phil: If you remember we had a discussion about my tomato plants about three seasons back, I know that's a while ago but it should be here some ware. That season I lost every plant except those that were volunteers in my compost pile, Those that I had lost were mulched with straw that I got from a local farm and only they were effected nothing else in that field was effected because I didn't use straw mulch on anything else. Now the last seasons plants that I mentioned that were starting to show signs of leaf curl and yellowing were tested only for nutrient deficiency because at that time I wasn't thinking back to three seasons ago, I was thinking either low nutrient uptake or blight. The testing showed neither....but we didn't test for herbicide damage (different testing method). But now after reading the article in Mother Earth News, it all makes seance to me. First because of the damage to the tomatoes three seasons ago that made no seance to me since no one else in my area was experiencing blight and the symptoms were not consistent with blight. Also those plants were the only thing mulched with the straw....I know the farmer said he didn't use herbicide but there is question in that simply because he doesn't grow his straw near by and he could be buying from other suppliers just to keep up with the demand....long story short I don't trust his integrate. And that is also why I no longer purchase straw from him. Next I had a beautiful crop of tomatoes last season and except for a minimum amount of damage to 10 plants or so that were in the area of the plants of three seasons back, there was no other problems and I didn't use any straw mulch. I have to have my agent come this year and we will take soil samples of the field to see if there are any signs of herbicide in the soil there. Mean while I will be planting my tomatoes in another area anyway. The mulch I have stockpiled hasn't given me any problems with plants since I placed about 6" of it on my upper field last season and tilled it in to help build the sandy soil there, everything grew beautifully Strawberries,Squash,Cucumbers,two rows of Pole Beans,Winter Squash,Lettuce,Eggplant,and Hot Peppers. I may not have absolute proof of it but it sure looks like that was the problem after reading that article. We will see what the soil test results say. |
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Post by Pharmer Phil on Mar 2, 2013 8:41:01 GMT -6
I'll have to try and find that conversation Bro
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Post by BestoFour on Mar 2, 2013 11:56:58 GMT -6
Jersey, can you get away without mulching with straw this season?
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Post by jerseycub on Mar 3, 2013 8:20:48 GMT -6
Jersey, can you get away without mulching with straw this season? Oh yes, I haven't mulched my tomatoes for three years, I stopped after I had problems the first time three years ago. I know my responses to Phil and Spuds are lengthy but I mentioned all of that in the previous posts. Also the article in Mother Earth News comments about straw and also the residual damage that is done by the persistent herbicide years later after using straw or compost, that has it in there. It's not just straw that is the problem it's fields were the cattle graze that has herbicide used to control weeds, the cattle,Goats,sheep,hogs....what ever, that eat this grass and then pass it out as waist and then it's used in mulch and sold as finished mulch or dehydrated manure and sold in bags to the general public or gardener. There are people like me that use manure to start new compost, that bring in 30 tons or more. I have been lucky with the manure I have gotten from a local horse farm, I'm just going to be more cautious from now on. |
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Post by BestoFour on Mar 3, 2013 13:45:15 GMT -6
Oh sorry about that. My plan was to grow my squash plants in straw bales. I'm wondering if I should rethink this.
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Post by jack on Mar 4, 2013 3:03:35 GMT -6
Gidday Oh sorry about that. My plan was to grow my squash plants in straw bales. I'm wondering if I should rethink this. That is a real shame because straw bale gardening is such a brilliant and easy way to garden. Personally I caint think of what herbercide they would have used to do that damage from grazed pasture. I would have thought that it would have more likely have been anthelminthics that were used on livestock. I had a garden killed for two seasons from sawdust that was in a deep litter shed housing calves and it seemed to poison all the soil fauna and fauna. |
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Post by jerseycub on Mar 4, 2013 10:34:11 GMT -6
Gidday Oh sorry about that. My plan was to grow my squash plants in straw bales. I'm wondering if I should rethink this. That is a real shame because straw bale gardening is such a brilliant and easy way to garden. Personally I caint think of what herbercide they would have used to do that damage from grazed pasture. I would have thought that it would have more likely have been anthelminthics that were used on livestock. I had a garden killed for two seasons from sawdust that was in a deep litter shed housing calves and it seemed to poison all the soil fauna and fauna. BestoFour I'm not trying to change your mind about trying something that may work out very well, I am tell everyone about my experience. You should be careful were you get your straw from...ask if there are any herbicides used in the fields were the straw was bailed. Jack the type of herbicide that is used is one that was developed to last for years not just one season and that is what is causing a problem. I don't have the article in front of me right now but the name of the herbicide in in there. They have even found it in Purina feed. You may not have problems were you live because of certain restrictions, here in the US we have been having problems. |
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Post by BestoFour on Mar 4, 2013 18:53:16 GMT -6
jersey, I didn't think that. I just don't want my squash to die again if I can help it.  I appreciate your information.  Jack, I've posted about straw bale planting. If I can find it I'll message you and I ask that you post what you know about it there. I need all the help I can get. Thanks to you both. |
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Post by jack on Mar 5, 2013 1:58:01 GMT -6
Gidday
jerseycub, I realize that it is entirely possible that it is a herbicide that has not been introduced here yet, or I simply have not yet heard of it. But I cannot understand why a grassland farmer would use a herbicide on his pasture that was residual to that extent unless it is one that is considered to be very species spicific so that they were trying to get a monoculture pasture.
I also accept that modern farmers may actually have that level of stupidity too.
BestoFour, if you can't find it we can always start a new thread.
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Post by jerseycub on Mar 5, 2013 7:07:20 GMT -6
bestof: I hope the bail plantings go well, just be careful of what source you use.
Jack: If you read the article from mother earth news, it will explain the reasons for the use of herbicide in these areas much better then I can. I haven't enough experience in the grazing or growing of straw to give an intelligent reason for it's use. I am only giving everyone a heads up on what I read and how it connects with my past experiences as a small vegetable grower....that is the best I can do. I'm not trying to start a panic and hope I haven't done so, my intent as I said was to inform. On the other hand people do do stupid things and misuse these new chemicals that are being produced by Monsanto and DuPont as well as other chem. co.
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Post by BestoFour on Mar 6, 2013 15:17:53 GMT -6
I'm not sure where I'll buy my straw but I'll bet they won't even know if herbicides were used. 2 years ago I used it around my tomato plants and they didn't do well. Like I've said, I just have a little garden, nothing like what you guys plant, and it's always done great but that year we got very few tomatoes and the ones we got were small. Guess it could be a coincidence.
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Post by Compost Pharmer on Mar 6, 2013 17:38:06 GMT -6
If you are using hay or straw as mulch, do as I do. I use grass clippings and pile about 12" thick.  I have known for years about what is sprayed on hay before harvest and want nothing to do with it. I know what I do and do not spray on my lawn, and it sure is not pesticides, or herbicides. In the fall I just till in what hasn't decayed. It will compost over winter. Sure makes the black clay easier to work with. [  |
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Post by jack on Mar 7, 2013 2:28:11 GMT -6
Gidday
I seems that that stuff was imported into here and as far as I can tell it has only been used on lawns as we rely quite heavily on clover to supply nitrogen naturally in our pastures. Having said that, I suppose if a farmer were growing grass for seed he may use it to keep the grass only growing although it has been taken off the market for the lawns a few years ago.
Cereal crops are sprayed I believe with roundup just before harvest to make it easier heading.
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Post by jerseycub on Mar 7, 2013 11:39:58 GMT -6
compostpharmer: I agree with your method as well using your own grass clippings and fall leaves. I do exactly the same. we use the same product on own lawn as we do in the garden, no chemicals at all. Problem is we thought straw would be a good mulch too, as we were using clippings and leaves to build the stock pile of compost....bad Idea! We no longer use straw, it just isn't worth the risk.
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Post by w8in4dave on Mar 7, 2013 19:46:56 GMT -6
A friend of ours tried the srarw bale tomato growing ..... OMG it was horrid!! Their plants grew but they got very little fruit and they were just not nice plants, she asked me what she did wrong , I said, I don't know!! I have never grown tomatoes that way!! but I can see now what a big problem might of been!!
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Post by jerseycub on Mar 8, 2013 8:11:06 GMT -6
A friend of ours tried the srarw bale tomato growing ..... OMG it was horrid!! Their plants grew but they got very little fruit and they were just not nice plants, she asked me what she did wrong , I said, I don't know!! I have never grown tomatoes that way!! but I can see now what a big problem might of been!! I don't know if that would be an accurate way of determining whether or not it was herbicide, simply because growing in that type of medium would require use of some sort of nutrient additive to sustain the plant and it's fruit. The problem with the plant and fruit growth could have very well been lack of nutrients. On the other hand if the plants were showing foliage damage...like leaf curl and lower leaf browning or complete plant failure, that may indicate chemical damage. (I emphasize may indicate) |
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Post by w8in4dave on Mar 8, 2013 8:47:30 GMT -6
A friend of ours tried the srarw bale tomato growing ..... OMG it was horrid!! Their plants grew but they got very little fruit and they were just not nice plants, she asked me what she did wrong , I said, I don't know!! I have never grown tomatoes that way!! but I can see now what a big problem might of been!! I don't know if that would be an accurate way of determining whether or not it was herbicide, simply because growing in that type of medium would require use of some sort of nutrient additive to sustain the plant and it's fruit. The problem with the plant and fruit growth could have very well been lack of nutrients. On the other hand if the plants were showing foliage damage...like leaf curl and lower leaf browning or complete plant failure, that may indicate chemical damage. (I emphasize may indicate) WellI told them before they did it .... Because they asked... Not to do it!! They are not usually gardeners.. Maby 1 tomato plant in their flower garden , but thats about it!! So I am sure it didn't get nutrients , unless you call water nutrients.... But really in a straw bale? What eles would you expect? Or I guess what eles would I expect??? |
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Post by Compost Pharmer on Mar 8, 2013 17:00:14 GMT -6
I agree with JC, There is no food for the plant. Straw is dead. It is like holding up the plant in your hand, with the roots dangling. The best purpose for straw is mulch if it were pesticide and herbicide free. You need to plant in a soil based medium, which will provide the nourishment and water, that the plant needs. Straw does not hold water. It would be better to buy a bag of top soil, lay it on its side, cut a hole, in the top, and plant your plant. Again if straw were free of poison, it could be composted then used to plant in, as long as you add some soil to it first.  |
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Post by w8in4dave on Mar 8, 2013 19:11:55 GMT -6
Yup exactly !! I knew it was bad from the start!! This is basicly what they did , except for the last part .... I know they didn't use fish emulsion and and stuff ..... I tried to say no don't do it!! Lol but ohhh well they had to live and learn!! www.ehow.com/how_5615372_grow-tomatoes-straw-bales.html |
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Post by jerseycub on Mar 9, 2013 13:13:23 GMT -6
Yup exactly !! I knew it was bad from the start!! This is basicly what they did , except for the last part .... I know they didn't use fish emulsion and and stuff ..... I tried to say no don't do it!! Lol but ohhh well they had to live and learn!! www.ehow.com/how_5615372_grow-tomatoes-straw-bales.htmlI had responded to your post earlier but something went wrong and it wasn't posted. But anyway, after viewing that site you posted, it seams to me that a bail of straw is only a source of heat like a hot bead, but still needs soil to establish plant growth and retention of nutrients. The French Market Gardeners hundreds of years ago used well composted horse manure to maintain hot beds for there vegetables, which they would renew every season. Bails of straw are more or less a novelty for growing vegetables in my mind. We have several box planters that we plant herbs in and patio plants like peppers and tomatoes as well as cut and come lettuce, just for the kitchen and they work great. I would recommend doing something with that or even 10"-14" pots, even raised beds built with 2X4s and filled with mulched soil would work better even in small area's. |
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Post by w8in4dave on Mar 9, 2013 22:39:31 GMT -6
Yup exactly !! I knew it was bad from the start!! This is basicly what they did , except for the last part .... I know they didn't use fish emulsion and and stuff ..... I tried to say no don't do it!! Lol but ohhh well they had to live and learn!! www.ehow.com/how_5615372_grow-tomatoes-straw-bales.htmlI had responded to your post earlier but something went wrong and it wasn't posted. But anyway, after viewing that site you posted, it seams to me that a bail of straw is only a source of heat like a hot bead, but still needs soil to establish plant growth and retention of nutrients. The French Market Gardeners hundreds of years ago used well composted horse manure to maintain hot beds for there vegetables, which they would renew every season. Bails of straw are more or less a novelty for growing vegetables in my mind. We have several box planters that we plant herbs in and patio plants like peppers and tomatoes as well as cut and come lettuce, just for the kitchen and they work great. I would recommend doing something with that or even 10"-14" pots, even raised beds built with 2X4s and filled with mulched soil would work better even in small area's. Absolutely ! I Agree!! A novelty !!!! |
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Post by jack on Mar 10, 2013 1:50:18 GMT -6
Gidday
Well I am sorry and I hope I don't ruffle too many feathers here, but I just have to strongly disagree with what has been posted here anout straw bale gardening.
Straw breaks down into an excellent compost and it appears that some don't really know much about the chemical content of straw.
I assure you, you can grow perfectly good vegetables in nothing but straw, provided that it has been gron in a healthy soil and has not been doused with chemicals.
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I appreciate your information. 
